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#1646818 - 03/01/04 02:21 PM More Questions on Floors
eightyeightkeys Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 556
Hi Ethan :

Great to see you over here on the MusicPlayer forum.

On your site's FAQ section regarding Hard Floors and Soft Ceilings you state :

"In a studio room, versus a control room, a reflective floor is a great way to get a nice sense of ambience when recording acoustic instruments. Notice I said reflective, not wood, since linoleum and other materials are less expensive than wood yet sound the same."

So, from that, I guess that laminate would be just as good as the real thing ? Is there any preference or plus side, acoustically, to having a real hardwood floor ?

Also, should there be any difference in floor/ceiling treatment between the Recording Room and the Control Room ? ("In a studio room, versus a control room"...)
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#1646819 - 03/01/04 03:30 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
DD,

> So, from that, I guess that laminate would be just as good as the real thing? <

Absolutely. Some studios these days are even using special stain right on the bare cement. It's less expensive than real wood or laminates, yet it looks very nice and can sound just as good.

> should there be any difference in floor/ceiling treatment between the Recording Room and the Control Room? <

Probably not. In a control room you don't need to roll gear and drum cases in and out all the time. So thin carpet can be used successfully. But that leaves the parallel floor and ceiling exposed to flutter echo, so you still need some absorption on the ceiling unless it angles upward enough.

--Ethan

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#1646820 - 03/01/04 04:03 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
miroslav Offline
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Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 14215
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
Hmmm...?

You think that a cement floor will be the same as a hard wood floor?

I would thinkg that even a hard wood foor would sound a bit differently than pure cement...no?

Plus..it shure would be easier on the feet. \:\)
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#1646821 - 03/01/04 04:21 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Miroslav,

> I would think that even a hard wood foor would sound a bit differently than pure cement...no? <

There might be a small difference. But if you think about it, all that might vary is reflectivity at the very highest frequencies. For example, ceramic tiles sounds brighter than wood or painted sheetrock. But I'd think cement would be reasonably close to wood.

It's easy to test for yourself: Get a sheet of plywood and bring it into your garage or basement. Crouch down on your hands and knees and say, "Testing 1, 2, 3" loudly at the cement floor. Then slide the plywood into place and do it again. If you hear a big difference please let me know!

--Ethan

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#1646822 - 03/01/04 05:59 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
miroslav Offline
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Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 14215
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Crouch down on your hands and knees and say, "Testing 1, 2, 3" loudly at the cement floor.
This kinda' reminds me of the classic..."praying to the ceramic god"...after a crazy night on the town! \:D

I'll make sure no one is around... ;\)
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#1646823 - 03/01/04 10:11 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Tedly Nightshade Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Already mentioned this on the other floor thread, which turned into ceiling pretty fast- actually that makes sense acoustically. But here it is:

Human fatigue is a big big factor. Cement floor is brutal to humans. Humans twiddle the knobs.

FWIW.
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#1646824 - 03/02/04 12:59 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

> Human fatigue is a big big factor. Cement floor is brutal to humans. <

Good point. Though I'll add that putting wood on top of cement by itself does not make it any more pleasant to walk on. You need some springiness to help that.

--Ethan

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#1646825 - 03/02/04 02:13 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Henchman Offline
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Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Concrete sounds alot differnt from a laminate or hardwood floor.

I would go with laminate. we did, and after 3 years i still looks brandnew.

There's a pace up here called ing of floors, and they have discontinued styles, and we bought some for our house at $1,- sq/ft. Andthat's Canadina. it's high quality laminate, but discontinued.
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#1646826 - 03/02/04 02:49 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Tedster Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 5935
How about another relatively low-cost alternative to bare concrete...linoleum? Lee Flier suggested this as a possibility. Now, I know for looks, it'll look like Aunt Clara's old farmhouse kitchen floor, but, I'm talking something a bit more comfy than concrete, and still retaining a bit of sound reflectivity.

Another reason I hate bare concrete...the shock factor. I'm talking a home environment. I like to chill when I record, and occasionally that might mean being barefoot. Ever plug into a guitar amp barefoot on a concrete floor? I did it once. That's enough usually to know it's not a good idea.
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#1646827 - 03/02/04 02:56 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Ted,

> Human fatigue is a big big factor. Cement floor is brutal to humans. <

Good point. Though I'll add that putting wood on top of cement by itself does not make it any more pleasant to walk on. You need some springiness to help that.

--Ethan
Very true.
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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#1646828 - 03/02/04 03:27 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
d500 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 3
Ethan,

Where do you get this special stain and what is it called?

Thanks in Advance

Dave

"Absolutely. Some studios these days are even using special stain right on the bare cement"

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#1646829 - 03/02/04 04:23 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 9613
Just to add a contrary point of view... (and Ethan and I have talked about this before...)

In a basement or other low-ceilinged room, I choose to go with a soft floor and a hard ceiling.

If you are not doing cellos, it works well. In fact, drums really get a solid sound this way.

I have a layer of Soundasote, a layer of 1/2 inch recycled rubber, and a layer of industrial/commerical carpet (like from a hotel lobby, rubber backed...)

The ceiling is double and triple layered drywall, the layers are glued together, and there are strategicly located 2x4 panels of 703 in 1 and 4 inch thicknesses to eliminate flutter echoes.

Bill
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#1646830 - 03/02/04 05:20 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Dave,

> Where do you get this special stain and what is it called? <

I typed "concrete stain" into Google and THIS PAGE came up first in the list.

--Ethan

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#1646831 - 03/02/04 05:23 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Bill,

> Just to add a contrary point of view <

You and me both. In my case my wife calls it a personality disorder. \:D

> I choose to go with a soft floor and a hard ceiling. <

That can work too. My main concern is with overhead drum mikes. If they're close to a reflective ceiling you can get comb filtering, and that's more obvious with cymbals than some other sources. Then again, you don't have to put them that high...

Bill, thanks for chiming in. Your comments are always welcome here. And please be contrary all you want!

--Ethan

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#1646832 - 03/02/04 06:10 PM Re: More Questions on Floors
eightyeightkeys Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 556
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Concrete sounds alot differnt from a laminate or hardwood floor.

I would go with laminate. we did, and after 3 years i still looks brandnew.

There's a pace up here called ing of floors, and they have discontinued styles, and we bought some for our house at $1,- sq/ft. Andthat's Canadina. it's high quality laminate, but discontinued.
Hench :
Are you sure that it's "ing of floors" ? Anyway, there are many flooring stores in T.O.

I may go with the laminate as well if it doesn't make any difference acoustically. I remember reading that you should go with wood because there's nothing like the real thingsonically. ?

Personally, I love wood but ......$$$$
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