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#1646742 - 02/27/04 01:59 PM How about floors?
Tedster Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 5935
For a project studio (I'll have to post this on Phil's new forum, too)...

I'm not going to put in any "floating floors" or anything expensive like that...but, over bare cement, what sort of floor covering would one recommend?
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#1646743 - 02/27/04 02:13 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Great question, floors. I often wonder about that- lots of potential for sound bounces there.
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#1646744 - 02/27/04 02:23 PM Re: How about floors?
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

There's no real difference in sound between cheap bare cement and the most expensive parquet floor.

--Ethan

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#1646745 - 02/27/04 02:56 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Ted,

There's no real difference in sound between cheap bare cement and the most expensive parquet floor.

--Ethan
But what about a nice deep shag carpet? Or a "pillow palace" approach? (pts. from Mixerman for opium den vibe? ignore that)
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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#1646746 - 02/27/04 03:12 PM Re: How about floors?
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

In a room with low ceilings I much prefer a reflective floor with an absorbent ceiling. That makes the ceiling behave as if it were infinitely high acoustically, which is a good thing.

--Ethan

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#1646747 - 02/27/04 05:06 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Ted,

In a room with low ceilings I much prefer a reflective floor with an absorbent ceiling. That makes the ceiling behave as if it were infinitely high acoustically, which is a good thing.

--Ethan
In my own situation I have a pretty high (12'-20' slanting) ceiling, and it's daunting to consider treating it acoustically, although there's a big flat section of it in knotty pine that puts out a definite slap hazard... not as bad for monitoring, but for tracking, yikes.

I'll probably have to do something with it eventually...not really exactly sure what the question is here, but if anything comes to mind, leap on in!
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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#1646748 - 02/27/04 06:40 PM Re: How about floors?
Rod Gervais Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 514
Loc: Central Village, CT
Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
[QUOTE] In my own situation I have a pretty high (12'-20' slanting) ceiling, and it's daunting to consider treating it acoustically, although there's a big flat section of it in knotty pine that puts out a definite slap hazard... not as bad for monitoring, but for tracking, yikes.
Ted - if this is a tracking room then i would not view that as an issue - in fact - I would consider that sort of volumn a big plus.

For tracking I would set up a room like that as dead at floor level and as lively as i could the higher in the room i got.

I would still use wood floors - but also a modified wood ceiling - and then at floor level be able to just record the music - and the higher i set my mics in the room - the more lively (and club like) the sound recorded would be.

If - however - this is a control room - then I would want live floor - dead ceiling - in which case i would (personally) consider useing a 12" square acoustic ceiling tile glued directly to my drywall ceiling.

You can also consider just installing a fiberglass could below the ceiling as well.

Rod

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#1646749 - 02/27/04 06:46 PM Re: How about floors?
Philip O'Keefe Offline
10k Club

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
I'm currently using industrial type carpet in the tracking room, but have been thinking of yanking it and going with either a wood floor or with this nifty concrete stain product I saw not too long ago. Lemme see if I can find a link (cue Jeopardy! theme music...)

http://www.elitecrete.com/?OVRAW=Concrete%20AND%20stain&OVKEY=concrete%20stain&OVMTC=standard

http://www.lmscofield.com/index.htm?source=overture

http://www.donnellyandsons.com/

http://www.concrete-stain.com/

There ya go - that should get you started... or just do a Google search with Concrete and stain as the keywords. \:\)
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#1646750 - 02/27/04 09:57 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Rod Gervais:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
[QUOTE] In my own situation I have a pretty high (12'-20' slanting) ceiling, and it's daunting to consider treating it acoustically, although there's a big flat section of it in knotty pine that puts out a definite slap hazard... not as bad for monitoring, but for tracking, yikes.
Ted - if this is a tracking room then i would not view that as an issue - in fact - I would consider that sort of volumn a big plus.

For tracking I would set up a room like that as dead at floor level and as lively as i could the higher in the room i got.

I would still use wood floors - but also a modified wood ceiling - and then at floor level be able to just record the music - and the higher i set my mics in the room - the more lively (and club like) the sound recorded would be.

If - however - this is a control room - then I would want live floor - dead ceiling - in which case i would (personally) consider useing a 12" square acoustic ceiling tile glued directly to my drywall ceiling.

You can also consider just installing a fiberglass could below the ceiling as well.

Rod
Thanks Rod,

Actually this room does dual service for tracking and control room. Plus, I live in it! I am glad it has as much volume as it does, and the shape is fairly complex, not easy to describe. It's probably around 8-10,000 cubic feet.

I can get some good results recording most instruments in here, but my blues shouting and trumpet ring the room in a way where the ceiling gets to be a problem. Usually this part of the ceiling is above and behind the monitors, and it doesn't seem to be a problem then.

The whole place is a rustic cabin, hence all the knotty pine, and I've had one experienced engineer recommend putting a kind of complex skyline wooden thing on the ceiling, but it's easier to talk about putting things on the ceiling than to put them there!

Thanks for your interest, and hopefully this will help clarify my thinking somewhat.

Other most excellent Ted, what would concern me about your concrete floor is the sheer fatigue factor of working on it. I'd be thinking about some kind of subfloor with a jute pad or something, something with a little forgiveness to it. Headspace is probably precious in there, but fatigue is a biggie too! Make it a comfortable place to make decisions, and you'll make better ones.
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#1646751 - 02/28/04 01:45 AM Re: How about floors?
Tedster Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 5935
Good points, other most excellent Ted...(shred air guitar lick)... \:D
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#1646752 - 02/28/04 06:22 AM Re: How about floors?
Bunny Knutson Offline
10k Club

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 13523
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
So... OK.

Out goes my carpet, and in comes some ceiling acoustic treatment?

That's gonna be a lotta work.

The CR of my home/project studio is in a roughly 11' X 15' garage space with a 7' ceiling and a cement floor, currently carpeted. I have a tracking room adjacent to my CR, of similar proportions, with a faux hard wood floor.

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#1646753 - 02/28/04 11:56 AM Re: How about floors?
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

Rod is a real expert, and his advice to hang a rigid fiberglass cloud high up in the room is right on the money. One big advantage of a cloud hanging a foot or so below the ceiling is the air gap between the cloud and ceiling extends the absorption to low frequencies.

Hey Rod, great to see you here!

--Ethan

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#1646754 - 02/29/04 04:17 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Ted,

Rod is a real expert, and his advice to hang a rigid fiberglass cloud high up in the room is right on the money. One big advantage of a cloud hanging a foot or so below the ceiling is the air gap between the cloud and ceiling extends the absorption to low frequencies.

Hey Rod, great to see you here!

--Ethan
Well, I'll have to consider that carefully. The biggest most problematic piece of ceiling is a 45 degree ceiling from 9' to 20', I wonder should the cloud be parallel to the ceiling, to be a foot or so beneath? It shouldn't be very heavy anyway, so that seems more workable than some ideas...

Pretty complex in shape, various pitches and sizes, maybe I should go with a bunch of smaller (4x8 maybe) floating panels in various places. Would these be similar to a real trap? I'm thinking functionally, they would catch sound on both sides, which would be somewhat similar...

Thanks folks!
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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#1646755 - 03/01/04 01:23 PM Re: How about floors?
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

> I wonder should the cloud be parallel to the ceiling, to be a foot or so beneath? <

I'm not sure it matters. Maybe you could split the difference and have the cloud portion angle upward at about half the incline of the ceiling.

> maybe I should go with a bunch of smaller (4x8 maybe) floating panels in various places. Would these be similar to a real trap? <

When you space an absorber away from a surface you do benefit from having it absorb on both sides. Especially if you use several small panels versus one huge one.

There's more to a MiniTrap than just fiberglass, but for a ceiling cloud the main goal is absorption down to the low midrange. As opposed to needing serious bass trapping. So for a ceiling cloud rigid fiberglass panels do a fine job.

--Ethan

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#1646756 - 03/01/04 02:16 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Ted,

> I wonder should the cloud be parallel to the ceiling, to be a foot or so beneath? <

I'm not sure it matters. Maybe you could split the difference and have the cloud portion angle upward at about half the incline of the ceiling.

> maybe I should go with a bunch of smaller (4x8 maybe) floating panels in various places. Would these be similar to a real trap? <

When you space an absorber away from a surface you do benefit from having it absorb on both sides. Especially if you use several small panels versus one huge one.

There's more to a MiniTrap than just fiberglass, but for a ceiling cloud the main goal is absorption down to the low midrange. As opposed to needing serious bass trapping. So for a ceiling cloud rigid fiberglass panels do a fine job.

--Ethan
Thanks Ethan, I'm just wondering if I shouldn't be doing away with some bass while I'm at it- of course it's an issue in my room too, and I will probably need more bass traps than I can afford in a space that big, unless I go DIY in a big way. I suppose having the cloud a foot or so from the ceiling will help grab some bass, as you mentioned above, but would it be easy to grab some more by going with something beyond just fiberglass?
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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#1646757 - 03/01/04 03:34 PM Re: How about floors?
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Ted,

> I suppose having the cloud a foot or so from the ceiling will help grab some bass <

Yes, and as you make the rigid fiberglass thicker - for example, use four inches thick instead of only 2 - that extends the absorption to lower frequencies.

--Ethan

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#1646758 - 03/01/04 10:14 PM Re: How about floors?
Tedly Nightshade Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 4649
Loc: applegate,OR,UNITED STATES
Thanks Ethan! And thanks for putting in the time on this new forum, it rocks!
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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Moderator:  Ethan Winer