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Minimoog glide envelope


RipperTronic

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I recently tested two VA synths in "Monophonic" mode and compared their respective portamento (glide) feature with some original Minimoog recordings (as I don't own a real one).

I tested the softsynths on a Mac - these are the Arturia Minimoog V (latest demo version downloaded from their website) and the Vogue MK2 freeware (latest release from the Apple software website).

Clearly, the Arturia glide is extremely realistic while the Vogue is not. The main difference I noticed is that on a real Minimoog (and the Arturia synth is modeled on that) the glide time is not constant but it seems to depend on the distance between the keys played: the bigger the distance from source to destination note, the longer the glide envelope will take to complete.

I can't describe it better but I have the impression on cheaper softsynths like the Vogue, the glide time is actually constant and that explains why the overall "feeling" is not quite the same.

I then had a closer listening to some recordings of famous 70's Minimoog lead lines and my suspect is confirmed: it is clearly audible that, say, a full-octave glide takes much longer than a single semitone glide.

And indeed I find it more "natural" to have longer glide times for bigger key distances but it's probably just myself.

Can any Minimoog owner please elaborate on that? Am I right or wrong? Also, what about other real analog manufacturers?

Thanks for any feedback on this.

 

 

 

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I'm at work so I cannot try it on my Voyager but I seem to remember glide on the old Mini having a bit of ramp up time before reaching a linear rate. This is different than some modern synths and VSTi's that offer either linear or exp. With the ramp up time, you get noticable glide between close notes without having to set the rate too high for larger gaps.

This post edited for speling.

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My ROMpler (Ensoniq MR76) uses a "constant time" portamento. Of all the stupid, useless features! It means that at a given setting, the results are musical for a certain size interval. I don't know who made that decision but they should have been let go.

 

There are at least 3 simple possibilities for portamento.

 

1) constant time (ick)

2) constant rate

3) exponential decay

 

Option 3 would have been the simplest to implement on a classic synth: all you'd need is a variable capacitor and a resistor and bingo. But I don't think that's what a minimoog did.

 

With exponential decay, it the glide rate would start out fast (with a faster rate the farther apart the notes are) and get slower as it approaches the new note. More precisely, the rate would be proportional to the interval between the current pitch and the target. Longer intervals would take significantly longer to glide. I don't think I've ever played anything that worked this way.

 

I'll be interested to hear what a real minimoog did. I remember the sound quite well, and whatever it did, that's what I want! I've always more or less assumed that it was constant rate.

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My ROMpler (Ensoniq MR76)...... I don't know who made that decision but they should have been let go.

Most of those guys were let go shortly after the MR series. :o

Although, I doubt it had anything to do with their wacky portamento time issues.

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As for other analogs, the DSI Tetra uses fixed rate and fixed time glide methods and also a choice for legato or not.

 

If you are using a layered patch the glide parameters must be set in each layer. I guess that makes good sense but it stumped me for awhile.

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I haven't had time to update my Voyager to 3.5 yet (if I got that new version number right), but my recollection is that portamento is one of the major enhancements in this new OS update, so anyone else with a Voyager should probably take that into consideration.

 

I used to own Arturia minimoog and did not find its glide function convincing at all. I got more realistic portamento glide from the Yamaha VA, the PLG150-AN card.

 

Oops, I should clarify that was version 1 -- several who have version 2 of the Arturia emu claim it is now very close to the real thing on many counts.

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My ROMpler (Ensoniq MR76)...... I don't know who made that decision but they should have been let go.
Most of those guys were let go shortly after the MR series. :o

Although, I doubt it had anything to do with their wacky portamento time issues.

True, and a shame, because the MR/ZR were really amazing instruments. The lack of patch buttons (which they fixed for ZR) and portamento are my only complaints. I think the piano is nearly competitive with todays better DPs. Damn Soundblaster for buying them and shutting them down!

 

The MR76 is one of the best bits of kit I've ever bought.

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Mini glide is exponential (capacitor charge). In musical terms this means that not only does it take longer to reach a wider interval, but that the pitch change slows down as you approach the terminal note.

 

Constant time is also useful musically - for when you want a little glide between notes, but you want to ensure that you always reach the note regardless of the interval.

 

Constant rate is similar to the exponential case but does not have the dramatic slow down as you approach the pitch. This sounds unnatural to me having grown up listening to exponential.

Moe

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Rate based portamento (the more generic term for Moog's glide) is the way it works - more or less - on all analogs I think. Time based portamento is a digital thing, isn't it? You guys who are more into analog synths correct me if there's an analog synth with time based portamento, but I don't think there is.

 

Wherever it came from, I prefer time based myself - and legato only please. That way I can activate and deactivate it according to my playing style and not have to keep throwing a switch on and off with my left hand. I use it on some leads.

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Hey guys, thanks a lot for your answers. I'll assume the Mini had exponential glide then: reason why I'm taking the Mini as a model is that, in my humble opinion, the best legato glide lead lines of the 70s were all played on Minimoogs. Possibly, the "constant time" kind of glide is useful in some cases but it does not sound 100% "musical" in most of the situations.

So, all of you VA synth makers out there please take note: if you plan to implement portamento in your softsynths then please consider exponential glide as a default. Thanks!

 

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.........You guys who are more into analog synths correct me if there's an analog synth with time based portamento, but I don't think there is........

 

As mentioned above, the DSI Tetra (and likely the Prophet 8) offers fixed and time based glide and they are definitely analog synths.

 

Perhaps it is due to digital control.... :confused:

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Mini glide is exponential (capacitor charge). In musical terms this means that not only does it take longer to reach a wider interval, but that the pitch change slows down as you approach the terminal note.
Are you sure? It's not what I remember, or how it sounds in "Lucky Man". It's always felt linear to me. On the other hand, the RC network solution is so simple it would make sense from a hardware perspective.

 

Constant time is also useful musically - for when you want a little glide between notes, but you want to ensure that you always reach the note regardless of the interval.
I've never found this to be the case. If the time is short enough that small intervals aren't mush, large intervals slide waaaaay too fast. There is simply no useful setting, IMHO.
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It's not what I remember, or how it sounds in "Lucky Man". It's always felt linear to me. On the other hand, the RC network solution is so simple it would make sense from a hardware perspective.

 

Jeff, are you sure w/ Lucky Man and te Mini ?

AFAIR, Lucky Man is recorded w/ the Moog Modular.

I hope m right.

 

A.C.

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Constant time is also useful musically - for when you want a little glide between notes, but you want to ensure that you always reach the note regardless of the interval.
I've never found this to be the case. If the time is short enough that small intervals aren't mush, large intervals slide waaaaay too fast. There is simply no useful setting, IMHO.

 

I've been using legato only time based portamento exclusively since it first started appearing on Rolands 20 years ago, and I find it very musical. I use it TB style to tie certain notes in a phrase together. It's kind of a subtle thing for added expression, and not blatant old school Mini glide - a different application. I'll put an audio example up if I get some time this weekend.

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It's not what I remember, or how it sounds in "Lucky Man". It's always felt linear to me. On the other hand, the RC network solution is so simple it would make sense from a hardware perspective.

 

Jeff, are you sure w/ Lucky Man and te Mini ?

AFAIR, Lucky Man is recorded w/ the Moog Modular.

I hope m right.

 

A.C.

 

You are correct. The reason I think of the Mini as being exponential is the intro synth riff to the REO song "Riding the Storm Out". It's definitely done on a Mini, and the glide slows down near the top as it approaches the high note.

 

But I would have to put my hands on one to be absolutely sure - I never owned one.

Moe

---

 

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Constant time is also useful musically - for when you want a little glide between notes, but you want to ensure that you always reach the note regardless of the interval.
I've never found this to be the case. If the time is short enough that small intervals aren't mush, large intervals slide waaaaay too fast. There is simply no useful setting, IMHO.

 

The TB-303 and its sequencer make good use of constant rate glide or "slide" as it's called.

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Mini glide is exponential (capacitor charge). In musical terms this means that not only does it take longer to reach a wider interval, but that the pitch change slows down as you approach the terminal note.
Are you sure? It's not what I remember, or how it sounds in "Lucky Man". It's always felt linear to me. On the other hand, the RC network solution is so simple it would make sense from a hardware perspective.

 

The glide circuit is a 1mf cap with a pair of 2N4303 transistors (one for Glide up, one for Glide down). I've got a scan of the schematic if anyone's interested. :)

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Moog Modular glide is log. When I emulated the "Lucky Man" solo on the Andromeda, log glide nailed the expression.

 

Minimoog glide is "almost" linear but not expo or log. Because of the 2N4303 pairs in the gilde circuit, glide up rate is different from glide down. It's a unique quirk (some would say "happy accident") that make the minimoog a minimoog.

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This morning I've been trying to remember prominent Minimoog swoops in popular recordings, and the longest one I can think of was in "Blinded By The Light". Here's a Youtube of Manfred Mann doing it live and the swoop is in several places:

[video:youtube]

I have been trying to hear the glide slow up as it progresses upwards, but it's not that obvious to these ears. I guess if you Minimoog guys say that it does, it does - but it must be fairly subtle.

 

Either that or I'm just not picking it up.

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The reason I think of the Mini as being exponential is the intro synth riff to the REO song "Riding the Storm Out". It's definitely done on a Mini, and the glide slows down near the top as it approaches the high note.

 

That glide slows way down at the end, and how he's doing it is revealed in this live cut. He's gliding up to a high A and from there playing chromatically up to the C to control the speed. He kind of flubs it a bit so you can hear what he's doing:

 

[video:youtube]

 

Edit: It's all the way to 1:50 before the sweep. The rest is - I don't know what you'd call it.

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That glide slows way down at the end, and how he's doing it is revealed in this live cut. He's gliding up to a high A and from there playing chromatically up to the C to control the speed.

 

Ah. Well then, disregard everything I said!

Moe

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I have a recording I did from the early to mid 80's that I didn't annotate in enough depth at the time, that I listened to the other day and was wondering "how could I replicate that sound on the P'08 or Voyager?". It had a time-based portamento glide. :-)

 

I only owned two synths in the 80's: Casio CZ-101 and Roland Juno-60. I think I made this sound with the Casio CZ-101, as I did a lot of ground-up custom patches on that synth but somehow never got that far with the Juno as I had trouble with Roland's user manuals back in the day and didn't have resources to learn from.

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Moog Modular glide is log. When I emulated the "Lucky Man" solo on the Andromeda, log glide nailed the expression.

 

Minimoog glide is "almost" linear but not expo or log. Because of the 2N4303 pairs in the gilde circuit, glide up rate is different from glide down. It's a unique quirk (some would say "happy accident") that make the minimoog a minimoog.

This is consistent with my fallible memory.

 

I never owned a mini, but I did play a number of them at various times, and my impression was that it was linear or nearly so.

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It's not what I remember, or how it sounds in "Lucky Man". It's always felt linear to me. On the other hand, the RC network solution is so simple it would make sense from a hardware perspective.

 

Jeff, are you sure w/ Lucky Man and te Mini ?

AFAIR, Lucky Man is recorded w/ the Moog Modular.

I hope m right.

 

A.C.

 

You are correct. The reason I think of the Mini as being exponential is the intro synth riff to the REO song "Riding the Storm Out". It's definitely done on a Mini, and the glide slows down near the top as it approaches the high note.

 

But I would have to put my hands on one to be absolutely sure - I never owned one.

No doubt you're right that Lucky Man was a Modular -- or whatever SuperKeith happened to use which was unlikely to be stock anyway.
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Constant time is also useful musically - for when you want a little glide between notes, but you want to ensure that you always reach the note regardless of the interval.
I've never found this to be the case. If the time is short enough that small intervals aren't mush, large intervals slide waaaaay too fast. There is simply no useful setting, IMHO.

 

I've been using legato only time based portamento exclusively since it first started appearing on Rolands 20 years ago, and I find it very musical. I use it TB style to tie certain notes in a phrase together. It's kind of a subtle thing for added expression, and not blatant old school Mini glide - a different application. I'll put an audio example up if I get some time this weekend.

I hear what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. If the JX10 had this feature, I never used it.
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I have a recording I did from the early to mid 80's that I didn't annotate in enough depth at the time, that I listened to the other day and was wondering "how could I replicate that sound on the P'08 or Voyager?". It had a time-based portamento glide. :-)

 

I only owned two synths in the 80's: Casio CZ-101 and Roland Juno-60. I think I made this sound with the Casio CZ-101, as I did a lot of ground-up custom patches on that synth but somehow never got that far with the Juno as I had trouble with Roland's user manuals back in the day and didn't have resources to learn from.

Juno 60 did not have portamento, so it had to have been the Casio.
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