Lisa,
Your formal knowledge and training are commendable. My question has to do with the reason to tune down a whole or half step in standard tuning. Now, SRV and Jeff Beck and Jimi all employed this technique. Many others also but, those are the ones where I can identify the sound. Did the bass players and other band members also tune down where they could? Now, I use these tunnings a lot myself and I just make adjustments with respect to what key I'm in and what pattern I would use as my tonic position. There are many things that happen physically to the guitar and strings when you de-tune as you know, but,what about the dynamics with the rest of the band? Does the bass player de-tune? I only ask this because I recently saw the SRV video "live at the el Macambo club in Toronto". He's definitely tuned down a half step. So, his E maj7 is actually an E flat maj7. Reese Wynanns is playing "Crossfire" on almost all the black keys. I thought well that's a twist. It makes it almost impossible for the keyboard player to hit a wrong note. Sort of like Irving Berlin writing all those songs on the black keys. They wouldn't actually leave the bass in standard tuning and the guitar a half step off for the dissonant sound would they? I've asked some studio engineers who have worked with many famous players like Doyle Bramhall, Los Lobos and Indigenous(?)and Johhny Lang and nobody seems to know or they're not telling. It would be easy enough to figure out if we had a bass player but the last one was soooooo bad, our keyboard player covers it all with his bass lines now. Every time I try to get him to experiment you might as well turn out the lights ang go home. He's a jazz pianist and once he starts on the improv good bye. So whadda ya think? Does the whole band adjust with the guitar or does the guitar the only one tuned down?

To quote Tammy Wynette (I think) "I'm not Lisa"...hehehe...but, a couple of thoughts anyway...

A couple of reasons. In SRV's case, he used like bridge cables for strings. I believe I read where he used .013s for everyday practice, and then used .012s for shows. With strings that heavy, and the way he used to bend, standard pitch would have been a bit more challenging.

The other reason may not be guitar oriented at all...but, it's easier on the vocalist, and the guitar player can still hit all of those open power chords. As for other members of the band, I wouldn't know if the synth guys detuned their synths. I would imagine the bass folks would be likely to retune to what the guitar is playing. In bands I've played in, if detuning is an option, the guitars and the bass are all doing that, although not all acts may follow that directive...

We have bands in my area that due both. There are a couple of bands where everyone detunes which I think keeps it simpler for all.

There is one band I know that the guitar player is the only one that detunes (due to .012's). everyone else is in standard tuning, I think for the front man who plays harp. I'm not sure but I don't think there is such a thing as a harp in a sharp or flat.

Anyone know??

I think Ted beat me to answers.... LOL!

That is a very good question! I will do a bit of research and try to ask some people who worked with both SRV and Hendrix and also ask EVH to find out why those guys had chosen to tune down.

Most of the time, when guitarists tune down, it's either because of the vocalist's range or because of the string tension produced by heavier strings and the way it feels in terms of the guitar's playability. I would probably say that most of the time it is due to the vocal range. I believe that was the case with Van Halen, when Roth was singing.

As you have already discovered, tuning down definitely does change the tension of the guitar, making it looser and floppy, so that is why players choose to use heavier strings - to compensate and tighten up the tension. Bass players do tune down as well, to match the guitar player, since those two instruments function in the same relative way and it would just be strange for a bass player to be playing an E flat when the guitarist is tuned down a half-step. As for the bass players, many also choose to use heavier strings, as well. However, since a piano is typically tuned in what is considered as standard tuning, the player will just change the key for his performance - so if the song is in E and the band is tuned down a half-step, then the piano player would be playing in E flat, since that is the actual tonal key.

I hope this helps to further answer you questions. As I mentioned, I will check on the exact reasons for why the "famous" guys chose to tune down.

Thanks for your question!

Lisa

[This message has been edited by Lisa (edited 11-30-2000).]

Sorry, Lisa (oops)...

Yeah, I know they make harps at least in Bb...lemme see, I can never remember, is that for playing in F? I think so, can never remember which way it goes. So you'd need Ab to play blues in Eb...I'm not a harp player.

I think they make harps in just about every key, and Lee Oskar even makes 'em in harmonic minor, I do believe. You may have to special order odder keys, though...

Off Topic and irrelevant: Slack Key is actually a Hawaiian acoustic guitar fingerpicking style that relies on alternate (usually chordal) tunings.

On Topic: There's a 3rd reason to tune down: It results in a certain "chunky" rhythm sound that some players -- especially in heavier styles -- really like. It has a different character than using a baritone guitar or a 7-string.

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Mitch Gallagher
Editor
EQ magazine


[This message has been edited by EQ_Editor (edited 11-30-2000).]

Couldn't help noticing the (?) in your last post regarding Indigenous. Man, if you're into blues, you gotta check these guys (and girl) out. They are Native American indians. Two brothers and their sister and a cousin. I saw them live here in Dalton, Ga earlier this year. They opened for Kenny Wayne Shepherd and B.B. King. I hadn't heard of them at the time, but believe me they stole the show. Don't get me wrong B.B. is still awesome and KWS is cool too, but for someone you never heard of these guys left jaws on the floor for a full hour! They have two albums that I'm aware of, "Things We Do" and the latest is "Circles". Check them out at http://www.indigenousrocks.com
Mark ( New Covenant)

In that same vein, in 'analog world'...You tune the guitar 'up' a half step, slow the tape machine down a whole step...and you can now play tighter than a crabs ass [watertight] to some way too fast 'thrash' stuff...do a second overdub part with the guitar tuned down a half step, and the deck running at regular speed [now you need a player that can actually play at that speed, something that's not always that easy to find].

The guitar tone gets about 9 feet thick in about a minute...add a 3rd &/or 4th rhythm part with an open tuning...jump ball on tape speeds and tunings...as long as it's different, it will add mondo size [much more than a straight doubling of the part].

A real fun one to create a 'weird envelop baritone guitar' is to slow the tape to half speed, and use a bass [this is actually about the best application for a 5 string bass]...when you bring the tape back to speed, you have an new guitar part that occurs in the octave between the bass and the guitars. Frighteningly thick and chunky [and a stone bitch to play...so don't be in a hurry when you try it, you're going to be there for several hours].

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Fletcher
Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

Lisa,
Thanks for the response. I just sent a e-mail response but apparently I had entered my name or code wrong and it erased everything I think. More later. Thanks to all who responded. I know slack key tunning refers to a specific key, but I've seen it used to denote whole and half step standard tuning drops also.

The album doesn't do the 'live show' justice. The live show made my jaw drop...which doesn't happen too often. Much to my benefit, we share a lawyer...my lawyer told me to go check them out [and yes, I do everything my lawyer tells me to do...when he's charging me $375/hr. to recommend I go see a show...I go...as usual, he was right on the money!!].

I hope whoever does their next record is able to capture their performance abilities better than the last couple.

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Fletcher
Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com