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Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289482 06/22/06 12:38 AM
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Im back again

This time what I am wondering about concerns music tablatures. I can't read music and really have no desire to do so (plus many of the songs I would want to learn probably don't even use sheet music i.e prog metal solos and so forth), but there are many songs I would love to learn how to play but cannot because I can't find the notes anywhere (and i don't have to ability to play by ear yet...)

Do any of you know of a place where I can get notes from to play? I mean guitar tabs are so plentiful, why aren't they with the piano/keyboard?

How else can I really progress as a keyboardist if I can't learn songs? I figure not much...this is why I ask.

thanks

PS: the only site i know that offers some piano tabs is tabnabber.com, but their selection is so weak.

Keyboard Corner Island
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289483 06/22/06 12:48 AM
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Learn to read. Seriously. You ask how you can really progress as a keyboardist. You won't, even with readily available "tabs". Unless you've got a good ear, (and even if you do), you have to learn to read music. You can't be even "casually serious" without some reading ability.

Most music could not be represented by piano tabs, pianos can not be simplified into a chart of six strings; they have 88 keys layed out horizontally, plus 2 or 3 pedals. For that matter I don't believe people can truly progress as good guitarists playing only based on tabs. But keyboard tabs are basically non-existant because the concept does not work for keyboard. It is totally impractical for most music.


As for prog metal solos, I don't know about that genre, but usually you can find solos transcribed by people, in sheet music online and even sometimes published. If not, people often just transcribe them by ear themselves. If they're fast, you can use software to slow it down so you can try and pick out the individual notes.


Sorry to sound so harsh. Oh yes, one more thing. Try searching the forums. This topic has been asked a few times by new-guys, and discussed to death.

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289484 06/22/06 01:14 AM
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Music notation is keyboard tab!

If that seems daunting, it really isn't. It's not as hard as people often make it out to be. Really. There a lots of books on the topic if you're a self-learning kind of guy. A good teacher can also get you started very quickly. And many community colleges offer beginning music courses that include instruction in reading notation.

Give it a try -- I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

--Dave


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I wants to get funked up.

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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289485 06/22/06 01:55 AM
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What about MIDI files? these are more easily acessible to find...there are programs like Finale that can convert the MIDI sound file into readable notes.

Does anyone have any experience in this?

Also, to learn a song by ear I heard that the best way to do this is to hum the melody and then try to figure what scale it is in( by determing the root or tonic) and then to try it out in a trial-and-error typed fashion. But, if a song is in a chromatic scale I'd imagine this method would fail or be much harder to implement. All help much appreciated, thanks guys.

PS: oh and sorry for not using the search earlier...I just did a few minutes ago and unearthed some valuable treasure. \:\)

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289486 06/22/06 02:16 AM
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Must resist... ;\)


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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289487 06/22/06 04:52 AM
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Where's 09 when you need him....I miss the chicken foot \:\(


\:D


"I don't know anything about music. In my line, you don't have to."
-Elvis Presley (1935-1977)
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289488 06/22/06 05:04 AM
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I understand where your coming from as I was where you were at. I just started to read music. Why? I realized I could learn songs much quicker in the long run.

As for Finale with midi files, you find it easy to use and you'll need to read some music. If you read music, it will truly open up a whole other aspect of music to you.

The best comparison I can make is the convience of walking versus driving a car. Walking will get you there but a car will get you ther emuch faster


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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289489 06/22/06 05:26 AM
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thievingcactus, as someone who formerly could not read music, I would say it does not take that long to read music. It takes a long time to learn to sight read but that's a different matter. Slow reading does not take that much time to figure out.

Couple of things I'd like to add. For most popular music, it is also important to be able to construct chords. In other words "read" chords. There's obviously a theory to making chords but in the meantime, if you have no inclination to understand scales (yet), go get a chord book from the bookstore.

I have to say you're pretty disadvantaged with your plan at the moment, only because you cannot play by ear. When I could not read music, I could play anything by ear. Absent this skill, you of all people need to learn how to read music.


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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289490 06/22/06 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by thievingcactus:
What about MIDI files? these are more easily acessible to find...there are programs like Finale that can convert the MIDI sound file into readable notes.
Yes... "readable notes" ... in other words, standard notation.

Stop looking for the easy way out... the magic bullet... the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It doesn't exist. Hard (or in this case, not so hard) work and time is the only solution to your problem. T'ain't no such thing as "keyboard tab", no matter what some twit on the Internet decided to cobble together (and no, this does NOT refer to 09's masterful post elsewhere on this forum ;\) ).

If you're planning on playing "prog metal solos", you don't expect to be able to pull it off without putting in some time practicing, right? So, the same is true with learning how to read the method that musicians have been using for hundreds of years to communicate their musical ideas.


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289491 06/22/06 12:23 PM
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thieving,

As others have noted, sheet music IS what you need.

One thing to realize is that with most sheet music for rock/pop, not only do you get the full score for piano - but you ALSO often get the guitar tabs above the bars.

Here's a tip. Guitar tabs are often ONLY chords, (no lead or melody provided), because the guitar is expected to play only the rhythm part, while the vocalist carries the melody. The melody line may be written - but the basic reality is that the rhythm and melody are separated for guitar tabs.

For piano - it varies. Many scores have just bass and treble clefs, and the melody line is just mixed in with the chords. BUT - in lots of sheet music, the melody line will be broken out and placed as an extra treble clef (right hand) line. From a visual perspective, it might appear that you'd need 3 hands to play the sucker. But, like guitar, they've simply backed out the melody line, so it's readily available BY ITSELF.

From a "how do I play this quickly?" standpoint, I'd say - find the store in your area that has the widest range of pop/rock music books. You might be surprised at some of the stuff that is available.

Today, a LOT of sheet music is sold on-line - which means it's downloaded, and printed on-demand. I went down to my local shop and had them print me out a copy of "Cats in the Cradle" just last week for a last-minute deal.

Learning to read the NOTES is not difficult. And since you're dealing with music that you can listen to, you don't HAVE to learn to read the timing values immediately. (Though I agree with those above, that you'll be much better off when you do).

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289492 06/22/06 12:25 PM
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Closest thing to piano tab is a lead sheet. You will have to know the notes to play the chords at the top, and the melody written on the staff.

Anything worth learning is worth working for. No short cuts as Sven so eloquently said.


Jimmy

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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289493 06/22/06 12:44 PM
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I come at this from a completely different angle. I learned to read music first and it wasn't until my early 20s that I learned that people actually played music who didn't know how to read a note -- this seemed amazing to me. I went to a co-worker's house for a jam session and was completely lost. They were just playing three-chord stuff, but because I relied so heavily on sheet music at the time, I had no idea when to change, couldn't hear the changes too well, etc. I thought I was perhaps just not musically gifted.

Luckily for me, my guitar-playing co-worker decided he'd help me learn to play without sheet music. We'd play music in the office at lunch time, and he taught me how to jam. Suddenly I seemed to have a good "ear". This was 15 years ago, and it's only gotten better since. I have developed into someone who can pretty much instantly name the chords in songs and easily pick out the melody and even all the fills, etc. I don't say this to brag. It's just that I became a WAY better musician after putting the sheet music away. I haven't relied on sheet music now for about 10 years, and I gave stacks of my sheet music away to a piano teacher buddy of mine.

Reading sheet music definitely has it's advantages. It allows you to play a completely foreign piece of music, and I have great respect for those who can sight read well, but if you know how a song goes (or have a recording of it) and you know how to play without sheet music, it's MUCH easier to learn it in my opinion. And for those who believe only the very musically gifted have a good ear for music and can learn to play without sheet music, I KNOW that's wrong. I was such a fumbling player without sheet music initially and I thought of those jammers at my co-worker's house as musical geniuses. I now know that's not true.

When I was first learning to go without sheet music, I relied heavily on chord charts at http://www.olga.net (they used to give all the lyrics to the songs there, but now just give partial lyrics). But, you can still just use Google and search for the chord chart you want for the song you want -- example: '"blues traveler" Runaround chords'.


Steve (Stevie Ray)
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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289494 06/22/06 12:53 PM
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Hmmm...what about one of those keyboards with the lighted keys and you just follow along?

Yeah, I was always brought up to believe that our standard written music is a keyboard tab (and amazingly, can be used for just about any other instrument too).

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289495 06/22/06 01:40 PM
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Magic wand? Pixie Dust? Genie in a bottle?

You can't play by ear and you won't learn to read music so you will need some supernatural help because that's the only two natural ways available.


Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W. C. Fields
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289496 06/22/06 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Pierce:
Music notation is keyboard tab!
Standard notation is just about as perfect a viual representation of where each note lies on the keyboard as can be practical.

Just turn the page 90 degrees to the right -- low notes on the left, high notes on the right.

Beyond that, what the eff would keyboard tab look like? 88 separate spaces with a bunch of little dots in them? That sounds great.

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289497 06/22/06 04:05 PM
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thievingcactus,

One more thing to add. You say you can't play by ear yet, and I say the key word there is YET.

If you can whistle or hum a tune or even sing a simple song, then you should be able to learn to play by ear (because you're already doing it, just not yet on the keyboard).

You use your humming or singing as your instrument and know when to go up or down and by how much, so just translate that to the keyboard. It's not as hard as many people think.


Steve (Stevie Ray)
"Do the chickens have large talons?"
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289498 06/22/06 04:16 PM
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You can't play by ear and you won't learn to read music so you will need some supernatural help because that's the only two natural ways available.

In only one week Superman Returns so maybe this is a sign \:D


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Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289499 06/22/06 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by thievingcactus:
What about MIDI files? these are more easily acessible to find...there are programs like Finale that can convert the MIDI sound file into readable notes.

Does anyone have any experience in this?
I think most MIDI sequencers have a 'score' display, certainly Logic does.

Quote:
Originally posted by thievingcactus:
Also, to learn a song by ear I heard that the best way to do this is to hum the melody and then try to figure what scale it is in( by determing the root or tonic) and then to try it out in a trial-and-error typed fashion.
If you have not done so already, learn the circle of fifths, paying attention particularly to the order that accidentals (sharps/flats) are added clockwise and anti-clockwise. (e.g., F# in G major, F# C# in D major, and so on.) Then you can figure out the key more quickly as you hit accidentals. (e.g., assuming the song is in a major key, then if you hit C#, then there's a good chance the key is not C major or G major.)

As for playing melodies by ear in general, I think the main thing is just keep trying to play along, I don't think there's any "big secret" method.

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289500 06/22/06 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red Winger:
Where's 09 when you need him....I miss the chicken foot \:\( \:D
You rang?

::Sigh::...Thieving Cactus, don't listen to any of these playa-haters. Of course there's keyboard tablature. I know because I helped develop it. As you will see, it's MUCH more intuitive than archaic standard notation.

HERE\'S THE LINK


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289501 06/22/06 05:25 PM
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(edit) D'oh! 09 beat me by 1 minute...

I stole this graphic from this thread that discusses keyboard tabs. http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/008710.html

This keyboard tabbing system was designed by our very own 09.

It clearly shows how easy it is to learn tunes without having to read music:



I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead.
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289502 06/22/06 05:32 PM
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There it is!!! \:D

A Classic. dB you should really make the link in Zeronyne's post above part of the "Key Topics" sticky. A must read if there ever was one. I still splurf whenever I see the Frere Jacques "Tab." \:D

Cheers,
Mark


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-Elvis Presley (1935-1977)
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289503 06/22/06 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 09:
Quote:
Originally posted by Red Winger:
Where's 09 when you need him....I miss the chicken foot \:\( \:D
You rang?

::Sigh::...Thieving Cactus, don't listen to any of these playa-haters. Of course there's keyboard tablature. I know because I helped develop it. As you will see, it's MUCH more intuitive than archaic standard notation.

HERE\'S THE LINK
Oh man, you're killing me! That is, hands-down, the funniest thing I have ever seen.

So I guess it's time for me to fess up - there is a fully realized keyboard tab system in place and, if you can get the chicken to cooperate, it works great!


Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W. C. Fields
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289504 06/22/06 05:45 PM
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I vote that dB put that graphic in Keyboard mag!


Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289505 06/22/06 06:16 PM
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09,

Not to poke holes in your tab, but shouldn't Frere Jacques be more like:
40 42 44 40 40 42 44 40 44 45 47 \:D \:D \:D

(editted to put the smilies I meant to put in earlier;) )


I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead.
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289506 06/22/06 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blue JC:
if you can get the chicken to cooperate, it works great!
That line should be a t-shirt/bumper sticker/coffe mug/etc...

\:D


A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289507 06/23/06 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phred:
09,

Not to poke holes in your tab, but shouldn't Frere Jacques be more like:
40 42 44 40 40 42 44 40 44 45 47 \:D \:D \:D
OMG, you are absolutely right, Phred!

Of course, if it was perfectly accurate, it wouldn't be tab \:D


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289508 06/23/06 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 09:
Of course, if it was perfectly accurate, it wouldn't be tab \:D
Right, there's always a mistake or two in such books. \:\)

You don't happen to have the tab for "Rondo" played by Emerson during the The Nice era? Complete with Hammond on/off switch, kicks and tilts marks, knives shots, and reverb box spring solo? ;\)

Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289509 06/23/06 03:09 AM
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This just shows the real value of the internet. A new post [who's got to be trolling] claims he can't read music and can't play by ear. Nothing like silence... and needs 'piano tab' and Phred comes through. Talk about support. Phred, have you got tab for Chopin waltz in C#min? It's given me fits all my life. Maybe I need piano tab!!! I never can get the chicken to cooperate though.


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289510 06/23/06 04:46 AM
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I'm working on the Tab for "Landed." Had a problem, though. Ran out of feed for the chicken. Of course, at this time of night, not a feed store in sight is open!!!! Damn! I hate when that happens......













\:D


"I don't know anything about music. In my line, you don't have to."
-Elvis Presley (1935-1977)
Re: Keyboard tabs...are they non-existant?
#1289511 06/23/06 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by daviel:
This just shows the real value of the internet. A new post [who's got to be trolling] claims he can't read music and can't play by ear. Nothing like silence... and needs 'piano tab' and Phred comes through. Talk about support. Phred, have you got tab for Chopin waltz in C#min? It's given me fits all my life. Maybe I need piano tab!!! I never can get the chicken to cooperate though.
thievingcactus was participating with us on another thread. I don't believe he is trolling.


Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1
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