"Grand Piano 1" on the P250 is superior, without question to all the other grand piano sounds in the Yamaha P series and the S series, with the P120 Grand Piano being the closest second (same samples, cheaper playback engine).

The Rhodes sounds are more debatable.
I played the P120 and compared it's Rhodes to that of the P250. The beautiful sounding P250 Rhodes has that bright "ping" sound that comes in suddenly when you strike hard. It sounds more modern and less authentic than the P120's more traditional Rhodes sound. The P250 Rhodes is very musical, but I think I prefer the more authentic sounding Rhodes in the P120.

The raw Rhodes samples on the P250 are very good, I just don't like the way it velocity-switches. I find the way that bright 'ping' comes in to be too sudden for my tastes. I call that a bad velocity switch.

The P120 has a subtler, less noticeable, more musical velo-switch. I too think the P120's Rhodes, overall, is more authentic. It's the closest thing I've found yet to playing a real Stage 73. Better in some ways, because of better action, good tuning, and light weight.

So, you think the P250's Rhodes sounds more modern?

I meant the P250 has a more modern sounding Rhodes in that it sounds like a modified "Dyno-Rhodes."

Yamaha has not told me that, it's my observation from playing the entire P series and S series at length. The P250 Grand Piano 1 does indeed have the greatest clarity, and string resonance. The P120 does have the same samples but with less clarity (cheaper VLSI chips).

Yes, I agree that it sounds more like a Dyno-Rhodes. I don't think of that as more modern, though, just different.

P250

I personally dont like the p250. I think its piano sound is quite harsh. This is my preference. I just didnt find the p250 very musical.

Regards,
p120dUdE

Could you please specify why? Like Yogashi stated, the 120 has a cheaper and not as "good" playback engine as the 250. Having tried both, I must say that I really like both pianos and would not throw eihther one out the door, but if I had to choose, I´d go for the 250 without hesitation. IMO, in digital applications, every single nuance we get to keep is important to the realism of the sound. If Yamaha were to make the P 250 sound engine available in, say the P 120 format (or maybe even a rack!) I´d go for it right away. Then again, the keybed and the overall ergonomics of the board are a big part of the experience, and if I were to go for the way a digital piano responds combined with the sound and the overall musical feeling, the P 250 is definately my favorite "portable" digital piano, probably the best overall. I haven´t tried the GranTouch, though, and they´re all "just" samples...

/J nas

Yes, I will tell you why. IMO that the p250's sound is harsh. It is not that natural.

With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE

I am still waiting to receive my P250. If I might ask, have you listened to all the keyboards in question through headphones ... and is your opinion based on that?

I mention that for at least one personal experience - I bought a CD ROM of Rhodes' samples and it sounded bad through my very nice home stereo speakers; after I set up my 'job' system, the samples sounded excellent; that was an ... ear opener for me.

So, are we comparing apples with apples - were all the samples in question heard through the same system?

Well now, you still can´t - and probably never will - get every nuance of a grand piano in a digital piano, right??? Every single feature you mention above is compromised by the nature of the format, which is digital reproduction of an acoustic phenomenon with literally millions of variations. I´m not claiming to be able to hear every nuance, but a digital piano is still nothing but a digital piano. Even the great sounding P250 has a bit left to an actual grand piano.

/J nas

i've spent a couple of hours with both P120 and P250, with a time gap in between, so take this with a grain of salt;

I wasnt taken that much with the sound and feel of P120, i mean it was great but not something i couldnt live without.

P250 i wanted one immediately. Clear sound and fidelity. Action and whole feel are the best i tried on a digital piano yet. For pop/rock/ballad whatever, it ROCKS. I woudn't say i'd prefer it over sample libs , for classical sound. Rhodes does sound Dyno. But i think its cristaline gentleness is great for some tracks, it inspired a few slow ambi themes out of me as soon as i started playing it. no balls, no chaotic liveliness compared to mark I, but still really nice. and very usable for a gig. I havent tried electro2 yet, so i cant judge on that..

A P-250 with a Nord Electro rack would be nice!

/J nas

Rather than debate whether or not every nuance can be sampled or discerned, I would think the proof (or lack of) would be in the listening. If you listen to a recording of a 'piano' and you can't tell whether or not it is 'sampled' or 'real', the point is moot, correct?

I have recorded my own GranTouch 1 (on a mini disk) and listened to it later. I knew I was the performer and I knew what the piano was, but it sure sounded like the real thing to me. A double blind test (as always) would be the ultimate test. People do not like to have their faith tested ... and even when they are proved wrong, refuse to accept the truth. I think this would be a good idea for a Keyboard article. This would go right up there with the old Downbeat articles where, in the 'listener's test, the listener would state the race of the performer in question. Some people actually believed they could hear the difference between the races upon listening. (Some people still believe that!)

Keyboard Magazine - how 'bout a listener's test where some golden ears can have their faith tested (double blind, of course). The test has to be a playing test and not listening to one note played and sustained - real music played by a real person.

Of course the P120 doesn't catch all the piano nuances. After a few seconds, the whole thing gets into a loop. It is, however, a great combination of sound, price, key action, size and weight. I'm happy with mine. It's a great workhorse.

Of course! The way any instrument sounds in the context where it´s being used is what matters. I´m sure I couldn´t tell for example a P250 and even less a GranTouch from a real grand piano in most situations. A good clonewheel will fool me, and probably most VA:s too. Still, I´ve heard recordings where I´ve been able to tell whether it´s a Roland or a Yamaha digital piano (about 50% chance there!) that´s being played. And, of course, the more scaled down the production is, the bigger the need for realism from every single instrument. I wouldn´t want to do an acoustic sounding gospel/jazz/country recording with a digital piano, but for rock and pop I can settle for a good DP. I don´t do a lot of solo piano gigs, but if I did I would prefer something like the P250 because it responds in a way that works for my touch and my style of playing. All this is of course a matter of taste. A blind test sounds like a good idea!

/J nas

oops, wrong thread

I have tested both p250 and p120 through heaphones. When I tried out the p250, I didnt like it at all. I thought it was harsh. When I tried the p120, it was warm and beatiful. I fell in love with its sound, action, and features.

This is all a matter of taste, people who say "If you buy this, you will be an idot, it is not the best, this is" then they are complete idiots. This is personal preference, and I dont like the p250 at all. It is crap to me.

Regards,
p120dUdE

...and by making these contradictory statements, you are trying to tell us what???

In my humble opinion the Yamaha p120 is a very poor digital piano. I own a PC2X w/ Classic Keys Expansion and it does the job nicely. If I purchased a Yamaha DigiPno it would be the P-250.

I will post my opinions, and that will be it.

*I hate the Yamaha P250. I think its piano and action are crappy. To me it is a poor piece of gear.

*I also hate Kurweil, they are very poor too. I dont like their pianos or action.

This is all preference, so dont quote me.

p120dUdE

Well, may as well throw my 2 cents in the ring. I've been playing around with all the boards whenever I get a chance because I know that I will soon have to get some new equipment.

I am coming to the conclusion that choosing a digital piano is like choosing an acoustic piano. You have to keep trying them on until you get something you really connect with--that you keep coming back to because it breathes inspiration into you. I don't think it really even has that much to do with authentic sound as much as it has to do with right chemistry.

So far the most amazing digital I have played was a Kawai digital baby grand that i played at a fair. I absolutely could not suck on that thing. I had a hard time pulling myself away from it.

Some time later, I played one in a showroom and it did absolutely nothing for me. Was it just my frame of mind, the room ambience, or was it simply not as good of a piano? I honestly don't know.

I played a P120 at a music store while traveling that I was very impressed with, but when I came back through the area, I stopped and played another 120 in the same store that flat out blew.

Although I like the sound of an RD 700, I can't play one. I've tried a bunch and just don't connect.

As far as the P250 goes, I think that is where I am going to land. THe Kawai, for obvious reasons is not practical, the portable Kawais are okay, but just don't work that well for me. I have played a number of p250's and only found one which I was not duly impressed with.

My conclusion is that I'm not going to mail order anything. I am going to go out and fetch me the piano that most inspires me. I think it will be a P250, but not just any P250. I have concluded that most of the debate on this subject is due to the individuality of the particular piano played, more than on individual taste, although that obviously holds some validity.

Here's my ranking of all the Yamaha Rhodes sounds I've played and owned recently:

3. P-90 Rhodes - has abrupt velocity switches
2. P-120 Rhodes - musical, better velocity switches
1. S-90 Vintage '74 Rhodes - my fave Yamaha Rhodes so far, very well matched to the S-90's action.

Also, I'd rank a couple of the Nord Electro Rhodes sounds up there with the S-90's (but only when played with a weighted controller).

Heres the order I believe the P series go's in, from Absolutely superb to Horrible.

*p120- Absolutely superb. Its the bomb. Acoustic Pianos and electric pianos are superb, fantastic, awesome! The features, action, and other sounds are the bomb, they are superb.

*p90- Good acoustic pianos and electrics, but still not like the p120. Action does not connect to the sound nicely, and the acoustic piano is dull. But still, pretty good.

*p60- OK acoustic pianos, electric pianos are bad. It has only one layer, no dynamic sampling, but still very nice for a begginer.

*p250- Horrible, not impressed with it. Acoustic and electric pianos didnt impress me, along with the action that was not great either. To me, it is a piece of junk.

Regards,
p120dUde

me thinks p120dude needs to get his hearing checked. maybe it is opposite day for him. bizarro digital piano world.

Me thinks you need to start accepting peoples preferences. :rolleyes:

All of what I posted is my opinion. I hate the p250. You have to accept that. It is my personal preferences.

Regards,
p120dUdE

Yeah, but since you by now must be aware of the fact that your opinions on the way a piano sounds aren´t shared by others maybe you don´t need to vent them all the time... You don´t have to like the P250, but if almost everybody you encounter prefers the 250-top-of-the-line model over the 120-budget-mainly-intended-for-home-use model, maybe that could be a sign that you are somewhat alone...

You´ve stated numerous times that you´re not an experienced, nor an advanced player, by general standards. I would not call myself an advanced player, and I still do this full time for a living. Have you even considered the possibility that maybe you aren´t even really qualified to judge sound quality in this way? It takes a lot of experience to hear the subtle nuances of sounds, and how they interact. You claimed in another post that the P120 sounds just like a real piano, and then - in another post - you claimed that the P120 sounds better than a real piano. Here we have a fundamental difference in the way we percieve sounds, I would never say that a digital piano sounds better than an in tune, well adjusted acoustic piano.

What I´m trying to say is that you sound like a color blind person trying to convince others that green is blue, and since it´s your opinion it is so.

We are very well aware of your opinions on the p series pianos - which I´m a huge fan of myself, I play the 120, 200 and 250 on a regular basis. Since you will not be able to convince us that the P120 is better than a concert grand piano (well, it´s easier on the back, I´ll give you that! :rolleyes: ), and we will obviously not be able to convince you that people with significantly more experience don´t agree with your conclusions - i.e. we think that you are wrong - whaddaya say, let´s drop it! If you stop trying convince us that we´re wrong AND if you stop giving us your opinion (which we already know), maybe we can move on. This horse is dead!

I think that p120dUdE is in denial. This is a normal step in the grieving process. He has yet to come to terms with the P250 and is still holding on to the memory of the P120. He can not let go ... we just have to give him some time. This is all part of a larger process.

But seriously, when my P250 arrives (pretty soon), I will write my opinions of the various sounds.

This just in ... I called the store and my P250 should be in Tuesday. The owner will call me Tuesday and we will set up an appointment.

I was in a music store yesterday, so I thought I'd A/B a P250 and a P120 (through the same set of headphones, and with all effects turned off), to see if I still had the same impressions as the last time I did it.

I came away thinking that yes, the P250 piano sound is good, has good clarity, and a nice keybed, etc. I could see how people might like it better than the P120, but I didn't think it was a whole lot better. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say that if the P250's piano sound is a 9, then P120's is an 8. Or, at the worst, a 7.

Re the topic of this thread, I found that my impression of the Rhodes sounds remains the same: while the P250's raw Rhodes samples may be a bit better than P120's, the P120 has a much better velocity-switch, and therefore, it is more enjoyable to play. So overall, I give P120 Rhodes a 9, and P250 Rhodes a 6 or 7. I can't remember the Rhodes from S90, but I know that the Motif ES has some good Rhodes sounds, and with good velocity-switch programming.

For weight and size, I like P120. I can lift 42 lbs with one arm. At 71 lbs, I would find the P250 difficult to haul around to gigs.

I can see why people like the P250. But since the P120's piano sound is almost as good, its Rhodes sound is better, and it's more portable, I consider it more suitable as my gigging piano, and I would still make the same choice. It's not a money issue for me, although, naturally, I'm not complaining that P120 costs less.

P120dude, I share your enjoyment of the P120, and I have no problem with you preferring the P120 piano sound over P250's, whether I agree or not. But you're probably damaging your case by over-stating it. It's not the first time we've seen that around here!

I see.