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New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072687 01/18/02 10:18 AM
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Here's what I've gleaned thus far...

Roland -
- SM-32 table top synth
- XV-5050 64-voice single rack space module
- various new digital pianos
- a new auto-accompaniment keyboard
- a new VK-series organ emulator

Korg - Triton STUDIO - features are...
- Triton sound ROM plus a 16 megabyte piano sample
- over a thousand available memory slots for user programs
- sample loop processing features
- sampling in Sequencer, Program, and Combi modes
- integrated CD burner for backups and (!) for recording your sequences (including audio samples) in CD format - WOW!!
- holds seven ROM expansion cards plus the MOSS card

Korg's Triton LE is also out now.

Tascam/Gigasampler -
- Gigasampler 32 (for only $99 US)

Native Instruments -
- new VST2 soft-sampler called KONTAKT (I don't know if it streams from HD)
- FM7 now available for Mac
- Absynth now available for PC

Alesis -
- Andromeda is supposedly shipping

Emagic - the ES2 polyphonic synth plug in is supposed to be shipping, but I haven't heard confirmation yet...

Steinberg -
- piano emulator VST2 synth called The Grand

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ]


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Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072688 01/18/02 10:37 AM
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Dan, Is Hammond-Suzuki there. Go do a Water-Gate at H.S. Casey


All the time and money I spent on you. I want my time back!
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072689 01/18/02 11:13 AM
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My show comments about today will be brief because I need to wake up again in six hours to get ready and drive back down to Anaheim...

1) All of the leaked Digidesign documents talked about on this site were announced today along with ProTools 5.3. As far as the demo went, I saw few new software features - mostly just under the hood support for all of the new hardware. The most important new software feature I found out about is in the area of track count: 128 audible tracks at 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz, 64 audible tracks at 96 kHz, and 24 audible tracks at 192 kHz. I got this info second-hand so I'll try to verify it tomorrow...

2) steadyb demo'd Logic 5.0, ES2, and Logic Control for me. The automation is much improved and Logic Control looks to be well implemented. The gap between ProTools and Logic for mixing has been considerably narrowed...

3) I met McDSP's founder Colin McDowell and he gave me a demo of Synthesizer One. You can do just about anything with the waveforms on that thing. It looked very cool! I had a lot of fun visiting with Colin. Man, does he have enthusiasm and energy! Plus, he is deeply into programming! He is a super cool geek! (I mean that in the best way!)

4) I took some friends of mine to meet Dave Bryce and check out the ADAMs. Once again, I was impressed! However, it was tough to have a good listen with all of the NAMM background noise. Fortunately, Dave is willing to bring the ADAMs out for a private listen...

Well, that's it for today. I only scratched the surface of the show because I got there late and spent too much time socializing. I didn't even check out any keyboards (unless you count the softsynths I mentioned above)! I hope to be more efficient tomorrow.

Good night all,

Geoff

P.S. The Music Player.com dinner after the show was a lot of fun! I sat between to Phil O'Keefe and Jeff Leites. I had a great time visiting with both of them, as well as Phil's wife! I just started visiting with everyone else and it was time to go, because my wife and I had to pick up a house guest at the Burbank Airport 50 miles away.

I should save the rest of my dinner comments for a dinner thread, but suffice it to say, I had a GREAT time!


Enthusiasm powers the world.

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Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072690 01/18/02 03:26 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the updates. (hint, hint)

Anyone played with the Midiman Surface One? Would it make a good synth controller? Is there enough room and sensitivity on those pads?

Thx,

Jerry

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072691 01/18/02 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan South:
Korg - Triton STUDIO - features are...
- Triton sound ROM plus a 16 megabyte piano sample
- over a thousand available memory slots for user programs
- sample loop processing features
- sampling in Sequencer, Program, and Combi modes
- integrated CD burner for backups and (!) for recording your sequences (including audio samples) in CD format - WOW!!
- holds seven ROM expansion cards plus the MOSS card


it's all good, but CD Burner? :rolleyes: Why not just put in a USB Port. More stuff to add price to the synth, and more stuff to break in the long run.

Any idea on the street price of this thing?


Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Yamaha CS6x / P140 / Motif ES Rack / Akai MPK249 / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II
MBP-LOGIC
American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072692 01/18/02 04:01 PM
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Street Prices:

Triton Studio 61-$2700
Triton Studio 76-$3000
Triton Studio 88-$3400

Peace


If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072693 01/18/02 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Korg has a new Triton, called the Triton STUDIO. Improvements include -
- a 16 megabyte piano sample
- sampling in Program, Comgi, and Sequencing modes
- a build in CD burner that can burn copies of your sequences (it also works for backups)
- more utilities for processing of sampled loops
- room for seven expansion cards (up from two)
- many more user patch "memories" for storage of custom patches

From what I've been reading, Triton Studio also has an internal hard drive, though the details on its size and functionality seem somewhat elusive.

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072694 01/18/02 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by felix:

From what I've been reading, Triton Studio also has an internal hard drive, though the details on its size and functionality seem somewhat elusive.


5GB

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072695 01/18/02 07:43 PM
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From Triton Studio info on Korg's site:
"Hard disk samples up to 16 Mbytes (mono) or 32 Mbyte (stereo)."

Wonder why the limitation if it's a 5GB drive. I kinda figured it would work more like the HDR option on the Trinity.

Of course, I'm sure it comes in handy when you do this:
"After your song is finished, just sample the output to the internal hard drive and the resulting .WAV files can be written to the optional CDRW-1 (or a SCSI-connected CD-R/RW) to create an audio CD."

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072696 01/19/02 04:23 AM
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Hi guys at Namm. From someone who should be there and missed out =(1st time in 12 + years) whats Yamaha got of interest? I havent seen anything from any of the sights. Thanks.

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072697 01/19/02 04:57 AM
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Dang. Korg is runnin' thangs! They're poppin' out Triton babies left and right! \:D

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072698 01/19/02 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Markyboard:
Hi guys at Namm. From someone who should be there and missed out =(1st time in 12 + years) whats Yamaha got of interest? I havent seen anything from any of the sights. Thanks.


This is Yamaha's site for NAMM stuff:

http://www.giles.com/yamaha1/pr/trade/NAMM/W02/homeswf.html

Nothing super exciting. \:\(

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072699 01/19/02 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by R:

Nothing super exciting. \:\(


Au contraire, mon frère - mLAN mini-YGDAI cards are now available. I can now run a Triton-Rack directly into the AW4416 via mLAN. Many possibilities for THAT combination.


The Black Knight always triumphs!
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072700 01/19/02 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by soapbox:

2) steadyb demo'd Logic 5.0, ES2, and Logic Control for me. The automation is much improved and Logic Control looks to be well implemented. The gap between ProTools and Logic for mixing has been considerably narrowed...



steady-B! My man! Way to go, bro!

Yo, B, I have a massive h-o for one of those ES2's - I love my ES1 (Little Green Monster). When is the ES2 gonna ship? Is it OS 9.1 compatible, or do I need to run Logic 5 on OS-X to run the plugin? Damn, I want that ES2 - BAD!!


The Black Knight always triumphs!
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072701 01/19/02 01:13 PM
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Two quickies: (I'm very tired)

1) I saw Voyager and met Bob Moog. Big thumbs up for Voyager, but it's not ready yet. Maybe April...
(I've used a Mini Moog on several occasions, but I'm not a connoisseur, so YMMV.)

2) The Korg OASYS is a dead project. No further development. \:\(
(It will still be supported though.)


Enthusiasm powers the world.

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Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072702 01/19/02 03:12 PM
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Anyone see Axel Hartmann's new synthesizer?

http://www.hartmann-music.com

I heard they have three models at Namm and one may be working. They claim it does re-synthesis (as described in Marino's thread on the subject). It also includes some kind of neural control which appears to be complex and non-linear. 256 megs of ram, 64 bit calculations, 32 bit signal path, 10 gig hard drive with USB for additional backups. Suggested list: US$4990.

Anyone check it out? Is it real? Does it work?

Cheers,

Jerry



[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: Tusker ]

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072703 01/19/02 03:28 PM
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I played the Hartmann today, and hope to spend some more time with it tomorrow. It's weird, in a very good way. It's ROM based, but can mangle and morph sounds based on, I am told, a software model of a neural net processor running on a powerful DSP chip. The guy playing it was getting all sorts of sick timbres out of it. Sonically, it was like someone threw a Prophet VS and PPG Wave in a blender and added a touch of Synclavier for spice. Really interesting.

Also played a Fazioli grand for the first time. Holy f***ing God, what a nice piano. Costs more than a house, but the concert model is big enough that I suppose I could live under it.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: SteveFortner ]


"I'm just a confused musician who got sidetracked into this damned word business..." -Hunter S. Thompson

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Senior Editor, Music Player Network
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Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072704 01/19/02 05:35 PM
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Well I'm very stimulated by Neuron. If it sounds anywhere near as noble as Hartmann's essay on Neural Synthesis reads... 5 Grand MSRP will probably work out to be around 4,500 Euros on the streets of the U.S. of Eu., I reckon. It's a pretty big chunk of change, but the little joysticks are translucent orange, how can you argue with that?

-CB

Edited- Arg, got up at 4 AM and it shows in my typing.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: Bobro ]

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072705 01/19/02 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan South:


Au contraire, mon frère - mLAN mini-YGDAI cards are now available. I can now run a Triton-Rack directly into the AW4416 via mLAN. Many possibilities for THAT combination.


Like I said, nothing super exciting. \:\) Connectivity is great, but the last super exciting Yammie news for me was the Motif and RS-7000. As usual though YMMV. \:\)

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072706 01/19/02 09:00 PM
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Thanks for the Yamaha info/site. I agree, nothing too exciting. Same for Roland as far as I'm concerned. Then again sample play back has never done it for me - no matter how its packaged.(I might be sold on a Mark II for the Hand Percussion thing - although sounds like nothing happening there yet). The Korg BX-3 looks happening except for the wheels (read ugly). I wonder if I can replace my keys on the CX-3 to the lipless (waterfall) type on the BX-3. Wish I could see that Hartman neural thingy. That sounds like the best thing there. Logic 5 and Logic Control are already on my got to have list from the AES show. Hows that Emu soft synth. I'm amazed that to upgrade to an E4 Ultra with the REX 32 from an E4XT still cost $1400 when you can buy an Akai S6000 128 voice for $1200. Looking forward to seeing the Andromeda back in production. I might have to grab one of these if my wallet permits. As good as the Voyagers might be I cant see buying this over the Andromeda (player vs collector). I could be kicking myself in 5 years for this one though.
Thanks to all you guys at Namm for keeping us up to date

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072707 01/19/02 09:33 PM
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Spectrasonics (dist. by Ilio) had some cool soft synths. One called Atmosphere which does amazing pads. I was very impressed. The Roland and Yamaha stuff was not too exciting. Alesis painted their synths and lowered the prices. The Hartmann synth sounded great, the Minimoog was a bit flat. Opcode is still missing. Lots of cool $350-500 USB interfaces for computers from Midiman, Digi and many others.

A lot of the big news was in Pro Audio - new Digi HD hardware, Genelec subwoofers, etc. Not much new for synths. -jl

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072708 01/19/02 10:46 PM
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Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072709 01/19/02 10:47 PM
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Here's a link to restate what Dan South posted.

http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=z.namm011802a&z=1278343315822

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072710 01/19/02 10:49 PM
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Just got back from NAMM, here's my report.

Big Briar:

They had a partially working prototype of the Voyager. The analog parts of the synth were almost all working; the display was active, but not functioning. Bob was kind enough to walk me through his synth. Here are my impressions (mainly for those on the waiting list). The keyboard is evidently Fatar. When you first see it, it looks somewhat strange on a Mini. It seems to me the original Mini's black keys had sharper edges and were longer. The keyboard plays just fine, smooth and quick. It might even be quicker than the original. Just not sure it has the magical connection to the instrument the original had. Probably will just take getting used to. The cabinet was walnut. I thought it was stained but unfinished. It was finished. Apparently the finish is going to be a low to no gloss type (all wood choices). This
didn't seem set in stone but it's the way Bob is leaning. I'm back in the cherry wood camp right now (though they only had a walnut model at the show).

According to Bob the filter is identical to the original. There are two filters. I've seen this reported by someone else that the two filters would actually combine to be a 48db filter. Bob said no, the filters are in parallel, not serial. They are either 12 or 24db. How it works is pretty neat. The synth is monophonic until the filter. Then the signal is split in two, each going to its own filter. The spacing allows you to change the frequency of the second filter relative to the first. If you have the Voyager going to stereo outputs you can clearly hear filter 1 on the left and filter 2 on the right. Very different from what you can get out of a standard Mini. After the signal is split, it remains split through the filter and amp EGs. You can still run it in mono, the two filter effect isn't as dramatic.

Bob is still undecided as to whether or not the pitch bend wheel will be spring loaded or not. I don't think he wants it but might be getting pressure from buyers. I voiced a strong vote for spring loaded. The purist can always just remove the spring. I've just be spoiled over the years with the standard pitch wheels and I found it difficult to return to center on the prototype. If you're on the list, you might want to voice your opinion as well to Steve D.

How does it sound? While it's impossible to do any kind of critical listening at NAMM, from what I heard it sounded as it expected it to sound, like a Moog. They're hoping the first ones will be ready in April. Be patient.

Roland:

XV5050 Looks a bit like a Korg TR-Rack. Designed to go up against the Kurx PC2R, no doubt. They designed it along with Apple so that if you have an OS/X-based laptop, you just plug it in (USB-to-USB) and it's ready to go. Some of the sounds from the XV-5080, some from the Fantom, some new. Nice if you don't yet have the Roland sounds in your setup (but I've got a hunch most people do).
SH-32 I didn't get a chance to really hear this thing, but it might be interesting.
The marketing hype claims "there's nothing 'virtual' about this synth." Uses something called wave acceleration synthesis (who knows). 32 note polyphony. Seems like the front panel is packed, confusing. "...at an ubelievable low price." $5.00 would be unbelievable. We'll see.

Korg:

Triton Studio Detailed in other posts. My take is Korg started the workstation price war with the Triton and now they're trying to get the workstation price back up a bit. This is being promoted as the ultimate sampling workstation, but most people don't sample. I thought the keyboard on the Pro was nice. Reminded me a lot of the Kurweil K2500X Fatar keyboard.
Triton Le Has a nice price point of $1600 list for 61 notes (about 1/2 the price of a Triton 61). No expansion, no MOSS, sampling is an option.
16MB Concert Grand Piano EXB I believe this might be a version of the William Coakley piano.
SP-500 Looked like a classy digital piano with real wood sides and a Touchview screen. $1800 list. Lot of competition though.

Yamaha:

S08 I was impressed with the build quality. Seemed very solid for a $1495 retail keyboard. Claims to have the same Graded Hammer action as the P series pianos (action did seem very nice). Might be a reasonable alternative to the Yamaha P series pianos, nothing wrong with getting a lot more sounds.

EMU:
Keyboard versions of their command stations. Didn't get a chance to see Emulator Soft or Proteus S/F.

Kurzweil:
There was a new synth at the booth but it wasn't plugged in. It looked more entry level. I thought I picked up a literature pack, but it turned out to be a mouse pad.

Hartman:
New synth from a German company - Neuron. It features "model and template driven Multi-Component Particle Transform Synthesis ...Artifical Neural Network controlled adaptive sound analysis..." No less than four joysticks. Mr. Hartman figures it will sell for $5,000 (at least). more info at http://www.hartman-music.com

Studio Electronics:
The SE booth was pumping out lots of high volume analog goodness. These guys are under appreciated, IMHO. Their stuff sounds GREAT and now they've got more configuration/customization options.

Soft Synths:

TDM verion of Access Indigo is now available.
NI Kontakt sampler Supports up to 256 stereo voices. Neat things like realtime time
stretching and resynthesis, 14 filter types, step sequencers, multi-stage envelopes (ala
Absynth, FM7), integrated loop editor with up to 8 loop points, FXs, 3 GBs of samples included. Knowing NI it will be worth the price.
Spectrasonic was showing off their new virtual instruments. These are pretty cool. Plugin samplers/synths designed specifically for the partical instrument: Stylus (drums), Atmosphere (pads), and Trilogy (bass). Each comes with ~3 GBs of Spectrasonic (some of the best stuff out there) samples. In VST, MAS, and RTAS formats.


B3 Stuff (things are looking up):

Hammond Saw the prototype of the Hammond B3, just called the "New B3." It looks IDENTICAL to the real thing. What used to be metal is metal, what used to be wood is wood. The screws are even in the exact same places as the original. The only thing different that I could see is that instead of having start and run switches, there is only one on/off switch (though it looks like the old ones). Uses sampling vs. modeling according to the rep, but some proprietary format, blah, blah. Played it a tiny bit though a Leslie. It sounded wonderful. When you press down a key slowly you hear the drawbars coming in one at a time like the original. My guess is that it will sell in the $8 - 10K range, maybe more.
Korg BX3. Dual manual version of the CX3. Keys are now waterfall with no lip.
Nice looking cabinet that looks like a chopped B3 (though you can get it with legs). No pedals and no capabilities for pedals. I believe a $4K list with a street around $3,000. This could be the one to get.
Roland VK8 - Updated version of the 7. Now has "cool waterfall keys" as the marketing literature states. More COSM amp emulations, D-beam (why??, why??). The knobs are really cheesy. Played it through some cheap headphones and was NOT knocked out. Korg is the one to beat in this price range, IMHO.
Clavia Played the Electro for the first time. Nice organ action. Red wood side panels looked dandy. I still don't get this keyboard. The drawbar thingy is usable, but you have to be looking at the LEDs to make sure you're pulling the right drawbars and that they're pulled as far as you want. With standard drawbars much of this is all done by feel. Other switches are too small. It feels very strange to playing Rhodes, CP70, etc on this springy
keyboard. The B3 emulation was OK, but not up to the B4 or CX3 emulations in my book. It's as expensive as the clones that feel more like the original. Now they've got a rack version. Color me confused.

VA Hardware Guys:
I think Novation was a no-show. Not much going on at the other VA booths when I was there.

Busch.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: burningbusch ]

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072711 01/20/02 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rod CA:


it's all good, but CD Burner? :rolleyes: Why not just put in a USB Port. More stuff to add price to the synth, and more stuff to break in the long run.

Any idea on the street price of this thing?


Usb may turn out to be a dead end or at least a cul-de-sac. It was never really designed for musicians/electronic music.
Most things in the computer field are not designed for music.
Midi was designed for musicians use and look how many years it's taken to get it right. Firewire might change things but in the meantime a CD burner is a good idea for a self contained unit.
Michael


Q:What do you call a truck with nothing in the bed,nothing on the hitch, and room for more than three people in the cab? A:"A car"....
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072712 01/20/02 01:43 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by burningbusch:
[QB]Just got back from NAMM, here's my report.


B3 Stuff (things are looking up):

Hammond Saw the prototype of the Hammond B3, just called the "New B3." It looks IDENTICAL to the real thing. What used to be metal is metal, what used to be wood is wood. The screws are even in the exact same places as the original. The only thing different that I could see is that instead of having start and run switches, there is only one on/off switch (though it looks like the old ones). Uses sampling vs. modeling according to the rep, but some proprietary format, blah, blah. Played it a tiny bit though a Leslie. It sounded wonderful. When you press down a key slowly you hear the drawbars coming in one at a time like the original. My guess is that it will sell in the $8 - 10K range, maybe more.


Thanks a plenty for the Hammond report. Being a die-hard Hammond fan. I clung to your words. Casey

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: kcbass ]


All the time and money I spent on you. I want my time back!
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072713 01/20/02 04:21 AM
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Quote:


S08 I was impressed with the build quality. Seemed very solid for a $1495 retail keyboard. Claims to have the same Graded Hammer action as the P series pianos (action did seem very nice). Might be a reasonable alternative to the Yamaha P series pianos, nothing wrong with getting a lot more sounds.

Retail for $1495? But Yamaha says "The S08 represents a cost breakthrough for an 88-key programmable synthesizer," on
here
I think $1495 is not quite affordable. (Oh my, I was looking forward to cheap and good synth..)


S K Y N A R E
Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072714 01/20/02 04:53 AM
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Any one hear about the new QS v2 series synths from Alesis?

Apparantly the sounds are the same as the previous models, the button layout is smaller, and they sport a new paint job...

http://www.e-trinity.org/pics/namm_qs62.jpg

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072715 01/20/02 07:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 282
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Thanks for the great overview BB!! Which did you like better soundwise between the Hammond new B3 and Korg units? Did the new dual manual korg offer anything (other than the extra manual) over the CX3?

Thanks,
Roland

Re: New keys/synth stuff from NAMM!
#1072716 01/20/02 10:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Originally posted by R:
Thanks for the great overview BB!! Which did you like better soundwise between the Hammond new B3 and Korg units? Did the new dual manual korg offer anything (other than the extra manual) over the CX3?

Thanks,
Roland


According to Korg "the new limited edition BX-3 provides all these features in a dual manual model. Pitch Bend and Modulation Wheels for improved MIDI control, additional voice parameters for even more authentic sound reproduction, and a newly-designed “waterfall” keybed for absolutely authentic look and feel have all been added."

Regarding a sound comparison, it's really impossible to do critical listening at NAMM. I would only make these observations. The Hammond is a "what you see is what you get." No key-click knob, no overdrive, no Leslie emulation, etc. In fact you'll probably never hear this thing without it being played through a real Leslie. It's always a trip to sit on the bench with the pedals wrapped under you feet, the swell pedal solidly attached to the console and the mass of keys and drawbars in front of you. Psychologically this gives the Hammond a big advantage. You will be able to really lay into the instrument. The Korg provides a wider range of colors at your fingertips. It's more practical and might be 1/2 to 1/3 the price. But if the top players come to the conclusion that the Hammond is as expressive and sounds as good as the original then it just might be time to start thinking about retiring that 30+ year old beast.

Related to all of the above, I ran across this in the October 2001 edition of Keyboard mag. On page 17 is a picture of a dual manual Korg (BX-3) created by a Mike Endres using Photoshop. It looks quite similar to what I saw at NAMM, though the real thing has two sets of drawbars, not four. What's interesting is that when Korg was asked about this instead of replying with something to the effect of "we don't comment on unreleased products", Jerry Kovarsky from Korg states "no new BX-3 exists in any stage of development except in Mike's imagination." That was only a few months ago. Guess Jerry owes Mike an apology. \:\)

Busch

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