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Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040085 10/23/00 07:53 AM
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Peake Offline
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We know we won't sell a million Andromedas, but it wasn't designed with that in mind (no piano sound). It's for those people who need the analog warmth at a new level of control, and for those who didn't know it could be that good. And also to show it could be done, has great value, and that it's not time to abandon the technology

I never said it was everything for everyone, did I? But for those for whom it's for, much grinning will there be.


Give me the ANALOG and no one gets HURT
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Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040086 10/24/00 02:58 AM
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To me, the Andromeda sounds like a really good deal for the price. Inflation adjusted, the list price of a new Prophet 5, Jupiter-8, or OB-Xa would be over ten grand today. Your ten grand would have bought you five to eight voices, one or two part multitimbral operation, limited interface capability, one or two line level outputs (without effects), tuning hassles, programs that could be backed up to tape only(!), envelope generators limited to an ADSR configuration, a single filter slope (plus a highpass on the Roland), and maybe an arpeggiator (not on the Prophet). These models sounded great, but by all accounts, so does the A6. I can't WAIT!

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040087 10/28/00 04:06 AM
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Dave Bryce Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
To me, the Andromeda sounds like a really good deal for the price.


I agree.

First of all, you can't compare Andromeda to any other 16 voice analog synth, because there's never been one before.

Secondly, the only other analog synths of which I am aware that are currently manufactured are 8-voice, have no keyboard, and are either the same price or more expensive than Andromeda.

Third, the feature set of Andromeda offers an unprecedented amount of flexibility and power. I've watched many highly experienced and critical people go over it, and to say thay they were quite impressed with it would be an understatement.

DISCLAIMER: While it is true that I used to be employed by Alesis, that is no longer the case. Also, even though I was seminally involved with Andy and am still on the beta team and currently working on the preset banks, the facts stand on their own. Any enthusiasm that I may show for this product is because it is a truly great piece of gear.

...okay, so maybe I'm a little emotionally attached...

dB

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040088 10/29/00 10:52 PM
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First, this is my public apology to Peake. There's a more to this arguement then we can read between the lines.

Second. Last night I got to visit Bryce's synth museum. I've never seen that much analog in one room, it was paradise. All of the synths I used to read about in Keyboard in the early 80s, all stacked on top of each other.

This morning I turned on my synths and they all sound like little plastic barbie dolls with the arms pulled off. How depressing. Long story short, I need to start saving for an Andromeda. Maybe I can swing a deal...

-jl

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040089 10/30/00 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marvster:
And by the way -- though the market is now more friendly to unique synths -- wanna know one of the main reasons we didn't sell all that many? No good piano and string sounds. Sigh....


That rings true, sadly.

I recall Korg's Athan Billias (now at Yamaha) telling the story of the Wavestation development. There was apparently a big argument over the subject of including a piano in the sound ROM. Well, the outcome is obvious -- there's a piano in the Wavestation ROM. I also recall hearing quite a bit of praise for the Wavestation's bass and organ sounds. Talk about missing the point! Pffft!

I hope we've evolved past those days!

Cheers,

Erik

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040090 10/30/00 11:00 PM
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Peake Offline
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Hey Synthetic@earthlink, it was nice to see you and lift expensive scotch (and thanks to Bryce for the scotch and hosting a great party. You da man.) And no apology is needed, but thanks regardless. Yeah, doesn't Dave have a killer setup? I have PPG envy \:\)

And considering that Radiohead had a Serge modular on stage for the recent SNL appearance, I'd say that the market for high-end synths is still going strong...

And no pain-o sound!


Give me the ANALOG and no one gets HURT
Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040091 10/30/00 11:21 PM
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Dave Bryce Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:
I recall Korg's Athan Billias (now at Yamaha) telling the story of the Wavestation development. There was apparently a big argument over the subject of including a piano in the sound ROM. Well, the outcome is obvious -- there's a piano in the Wavestation ROM. I also recall hearing quite a bit of praise for the Wavestation's bass and organ sounds. Talk about missing the point! Pffft!


If I remember correctly, it was the Wavestation EX that added the piano - the original one didn't have it. But it was competing with things like the DX7 and the Mirage and other synths that were trying to emulate real sounds - that's what it was about then. I remember DX7s selling by the fistful while a whole bunch of really cool synths sat there, almost completely ignored...the Prophet VS is another good example of this. People didn't get it. Too bad, too - I have one of each, and wouldn't part with either for anything.

Another funny note - one of the reasons that I think that the Z1 didn't do as well is that I believe Korg tried to take a lesson (!) from people looking for the piano sound in the Wavestation, and they put a lot of acoustic emulation presets and other somewhat conventional programs in the A bank. The best Z1 stuff that I've heard is in the B bank, and in the auxiliary program banks that Korg made available for it - for me, the unusual sounds are what really make that thing sing, not its ability to emulate an acoustic guitar.

dB

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040092 10/31/00 03:33 AM
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Jeff Klopmeyer Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by synthetic:
Last night I got to visit Bryce's synth museum. I've never seen that much analog in one room, it was paradise. All of the synths I used to read about in Keyboard in the early 80s, all stacked on top of each other.


Bryce's room is pretty much any synth player's definition of heaven. I hadn't been there for about two years when I visited a couple of weeks ago, and I was happy to see the monster room had grown. And it ain't no museum...correct me if I'm wrong, but every synth in the place is powered up, ready to go and in full working order. I've never been to any private individual's residence that had that many/that much variety of great synths.

- Jeff, TASCAM Guy

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040093 10/31/00 06:14 AM
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Dave Bryce Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:
I've never been to any private individual's residence that had that many/that much variety of great synths.


Then you need to go see Erik's arsenal - it seriously eclipses mine!

dB

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040094 10/31/00 05:05 PM
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Marvster: Are you talking about the JD-800? If so, don't you find it ironic that this synth now has quite a little band of strong devotees to it?

The best comparsion to the A6 I think is the Matrix-12 / Xpander. I hardly ever see a Matrix 12 on the used market; when they do, they still seem to go for $2400 or so, indicating that many still value their power. The A6 seems more than a Matrix 12 with a thicker sound per voice for not much more.

And yes, I am a hobbyist and will be getting one. More because as far as I'm concerned with my synth lineup the only thing I really need is A Big Analog Sound to do Xpander-like pads, and the A6 makes more sense than an Xpander over the long-term.

How successful was the Matrix 12 in its onset? I'm curious about that.

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040095 11/01/00 03:25 AM
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Pim Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marvster:
Side topic:

"There's nothing wrong with the synth, we just made too many."

And by the way -- though the market is now more friendly to unique synths -- wanna know one of the main reasons we didn't sell all that many? No good piano and string sounds. Sigh....
(edited 10-20-2000).]


I suppose you are referring to the JD800.
The problem with the JD800 was that it was too complicated for beginners, and had a lack of "one knob - one function" for the analogue die hards.
Soundwise it had the same problem: the piano was not very well, and the analogue charisma was in the looks only...

But if I remember well, the Jupiter8 was not a huge success either.
In those days, everybody loved its sound, all features and specs were better, but they bought an Oberheim or a Prophet.
Why? Has anyone thoughts on this?

About Andromeda: there is no comparison.
It's a synth in its own kind. With its own sound.
With its own price.



------------------
http://www.dancewave.nl

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040096 11/03/00 06:37 AM
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Dave Bryce Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chad_Gould@jabil.com:

How successful was the Matrix 12 in its onset? I'm curious about that.[/B]


I was curious, too...so, I asked Marcus Ryle. He replied:

"This is a real stretch, but if I recall, we started out building about 50 or 60 a month, and it ramped up to maybe 100 for a little while."

He went on to say that, although he wasn't sure, he thought that Oberheim sold around 1,000 of them during it's five year lifespan. He also told me that it ramped down considerably as its price increased over the years.

dB

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040097 12/17/00 04:03 PM
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Consider the "value" of any instrument when you buy it, but also consider the "investment value", too. How much will this be worth in 5 years. The reason people pay $5k and up for Moog modulars is that they are great-sounding and will not be worth $2k in a few years. They actually go up slightly over time in value (slower than the crazy rises of a few years back). Most of the modern virtual stuff will be replaced by a bigger, more powerful version at the same retail price.

The Andromeda probably won't be replaced by Alesis EVER (except maybe I can see a need for a "baby" version of 8 voices, limited options, limited knobs) and I doubt many comanies could try to "beat it" as the market is now too small to invest such huge sums into it.

Virtual will get more powerful/accurate, but always falls prey to the "next year's model" syndrome - people are afraid to "invest" in a financially-falling technology.


Relax and float downstream...
Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040098 10/31/02 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MelloT@aol.com:
Virtual will get more powerful/accurate, but always falls prey to the "next year's model" syndrome - people are afraid to "invest" in a financially-falling technology.
I totally agree.

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040099 11/01/02 05:32 AM
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Peake Offline
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I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to Jeff Klopmeyer for my behaviour toward him in this thread, regardless of its age. (Jeff, this is what I was hoping to discuss with you at AES but never got a chance to say anything beyond "I'd like to chat"..) I still wish to do so in person.


Give me the ANALOG and no one gets HURT
Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040100 11/01/02 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by peake@pacificnet.net:
I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to Jeff Klopmeyer for my behaviour toward him in this thread, regardless of its age. (Jeff, this is what I was hoping to discuss with you at AES but never got a chance to say anything beyond "I'd like to chat"..) I still wish to do so in person.
C'mon Mike, Jeff, don't go all civilized on me now...

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040101 11/01/02 05:30 PM
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Just when it was starting to get good! \:D

Seriously, though, I'm amazed people question the cost of an Andromeda or Voyager; for anyone who's looking for what they offer, there's _nothing_ else out there, for any other price, that will provide it. So, in that sense, both instruments are truly priceless.

At the other end of the spectrum, one doesn't _need_ a $4K instrument to be a musician. Hell, Franz Liszt played on honky-tonk uprights (and it shows in his music! er....).

I think instrument pricing is actually pretty rational. If you're starting out, you may not have either the ear or training to really "get" the difference between a $200 instrument and a $20,000 instrument, so it's a waste for you to be buying the latter. If you're serious about your music, at a certain point that $200 instrument is going to be a limiting factor in your further growth, and you'll be knowledgeable enough, ear-trained enough, musical enough to value something more.

The only problem with the world is that there aren't more musicians for whom $50,000 is a cut-rate bargain rate to pay for a fine baby grand piano. ;\) And there are too many really fine, expensive instruments sitting around as living room jewelry for people who don't have either the time or talent to really appreciate them.

rt

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040102 11/01/02 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by peake@pacificnet.net:
I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to Jeff Klopmeyer for my behaviour toward him in this thread, regardless of its age.
Well, thanks Mike. Very nice of you, though not really necessary.

Andromeda (as I've always said) is such a great instrument. Out of the dozens of new synths (and hundreds of new musical instruments) that are introduced each year, only a tiny fraction of them are truly capable of generating creative inspiration. Andy defintely qualifies as one of the few, the proud, the bad-ass.

And on a related side topic, I think that if everyone always felt the same, reacted the same, viewed everything from the same perspective, the world would be the most homogeonous, boring place imaginable...my definition of hell. Even if Mike Peake and I had our differences of opinion from time to time, it's only because we're both passionate about music and the tools required to create it. If we didn't give a shit, there would be less arguing...and less cool gear to play with.

I have tons of respect for Mike, and I'm glad to call him my friend. I also know he'd be on top of my list to help design a synthesizer if I ever wanted to do that. That supercedes any momentary flare-ups between two guys that really do care about this zany shit. \:\)

- Jeff

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040103 11/01/02 06:26 PM
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Amusingly enough, right after this little exchange of ideas/philosophies between Messrs. Peake and Klopmeyer, Mr. Peake showed up at my annual Hallowe'en party dressed as Mr. Klopmeyer.

\:D

dB

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040104 11/01/02 06:56 PM
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Jeff Klopmeyer Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bryce:
Amusingly enough, right after this little exchange of ideas/philosophies between Messrs. Peake and Klopmeyer, Mr. Peake showed up at my annual Hallowe'en party dressed as Mr. Klopmeyer.

\:D

dB
I'd still love to see any pics you have of that. Fer gawd's sake, don't post them here, though! ;\)

- Jeff

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040105 11/01/02 07:57 PM
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As noted by Mr. Anderton and remembered by many others here, todays top of the line synths are a bargain compared to the synths of the early 80's. That is without taking inflation into effect. People think buying a loaded K2600 or an Andromeda is bad, think about paying even more for a Roland Jupiter 8 20 years ago.

As for professionals needing the best I find the opposite to be true. The best is often bought by people who want it, not people who need it to be a professional. Professionals I have played with can sound good playing a piece of crap. They know it, they are proud of it, and they occasionally like to demonstrate it. They may have the best, but they dont need it to be better than the average Joe. Although engineers may tell you differently, it is about the music.

Robert

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040106 11/01/02 10:11 PM
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Even at my young(er) age, I was weaned (is that the word?) on analog synths. And though I like some of the VAs even more than some of the analogs, it's the Andromeda what makes me realize why I've always loved analog synths. That thing is worth the price and thensome. But, I don't care, everything ain't. For instance:

A company about 5 years ago comes out with an 8bit sampler (!) for, like, $1500 plus!

A very nice mail order company advertises a great keyboard, that goes for 3Gs plus regular, in a "special" package for $20,000!

(Non Keyboard) A great company (from whom I've been a buyer of since my beginning and into the future) releases a 16 track recorder with an onboard sequencer for $8000!

Mind you, for it's time, I didn't think the Synclavier was overpriced. And since I'm an MPC fan, I think the 4000 is relatively a steal (seeing that the 3000 often goes for more). An SSL is worth the money, so is a Neve. And the Avalon Mic Pre. But the above makes zero sense to me.

Eh...old thread, but I had to get that off my chest.
Peace


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Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040107 11/01/02 10:30 PM
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>Amusingly enough, right after this little exchange of ideas/philosophies between Messrs. Peake and Klopmeyer, Mr. Peake showed up at my annual Hallowe'en party dressed as Mr. Klopmeyer.

I don't apologize for THAT, however ;-)

>I'd still love to see any pics you have of that. Fer gawd's sake, don't post them here, though!

Agreed, as I was 85 pounds heavier at that time! 8-{

Don't worry SteadyB, I'm simply using my passion constructively now :-)

It is indeed a great time for synth lovers.


Give me the ANALOG and no one gets HURT
Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040108 11/02/02 06:00 PM
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Well I think someone touched on it. What makes paying big buck for a synth painful is knowing that it will go for considerably less in 6 months. Of course you can look back and say you had to be crazy to buy a Wavestation for $1800 in the early 90's when they go for $200 - $400 now. So are you buying that Wavestion now? And is it integrated into your music and are you as attached to it as I am to mine? Or will it be replaced at some point? I buy keyboards for keeps. The only things I've sold are those things that are upgradeable (i.e a Dx7 > DX7II, a DX7II/TX802 > FS1Rs etc.). Well I did sell my SH 101 that I never liked for a Minimoog. You can bet that an upgrade is in work for any of the samle playback workstations (Triton, Motif Fantom etc). IMO this becomes more of an issue of will I make money to justify this purchase? Fortunately as a hobbiest I cant stand sample playback type workstations like this. Now if I were to take a guigue where I need this kind of tool then I certainly would be looking at it with return on investment in mind. That $3700( thanks to anyone who paid that much) Andromeda may go for the $995 blow out when Roland starts remakeing Jupiter 8s(or 16s) but thats OK. Its mine and it makes me happy. I buy things at the best possible price to lessen the inevitable pain and then get on with music/sound/noise/fun.

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040109 11/02/02 11:36 PM
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I believe that it's important to remember that cost is relative to need and usability by the individual. Several people here have touched on that.

My favorite manufacturer of synths - Kurzweil - gets knocked for being 'too expensive'. And generally their stuff is a bit more than others. BUT - considering MY PERSONAL 'taste' for what the Kurzweil stuff offers ME - I'll gladly pay. In fact - if I had the bread - I would buy one of those pimped-out $26,000 K2600's in a heartbeat.

Also - someone said something about it being 'not true' that most musician's gear would ever pay for itself. I think that is actually a rampant 'problem'. We should probably examine cost/return probabilities befire making any purchase. Then again - you wouldn't have as much stuff for cheap on Ebay for me to buy ;\)


Weasels ripped my flesh. Rzzzzzzz.
Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040110 11/02/02 11:39 PM
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Well just to make you guys feel better...I was very entertained reading this thread...good stuff. \:D

Re: How much is too much ($$$)? #1040111 11/03/02 04:33 AM
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As a drummer I was able to buy a good kit and it was never outdated. I only had to replace heads and sticks.

As a keyboardist ... :rolleyes:

Robert

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